hellenen
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Post from iGENEA to 15.01.2010 09:01:46
It is diffcult to bring certain definitions together. The name Slavs refers to language, then we have different archealogic cultures, we have "political" tribes which could have included people from other ethnic origin and we have the names give by ancient historians for special groups of people at a certain point of time.
Now results of genetic researches have to be added to the big picture.
It is obvious that all this will never perfectly fit together because there always where people that were related by genetics but belonged to different cultures or spoke different languages and the other way round.
What we call Slavs are the tribes that spread out from an area between Vistula, Dniester and Dnieper (and maybe the areas around) at the second half of the first millenium.
They can be distinguished from other populations they met on their way - on the Balkans, in Western Europa or in the more eastern regions.
The 20% where not published in an article, it was the result of a calculation iGenea did, considering the data that was available at that time.
Thank you for your notes.
As i said, these numbers came from various articles published (i dont have a list), they did therefore not only refer to R-M458, which is a big haplogroup.
Such big and old groups can not be linked to only one ancient tribe, of course there where many Slavs with R-M458 but not every Slav is R-M458 and the other way round.
Thats why not only the haplogroup but also the Markers are needed to determine the ancient tribe.
I know there are differences between regions, because of that, the numbers had to be adapted from time to time when new results were available an aditional areas of a country could be taken into account.
That is also why it is a lot of work to keep this data always up to date, which is why iGenea decided not to do it any more for all countries. We still do research on these topics of course, but only for the purpose to get better results for our costumers.
Roman C. Scholz
iGENEA
info@igenea.com
www.igenea.com
Post from George_pr to 14.01.2010 13:01:01
Mr Scholtz, thank you very much for your answer
I understand that so specific questions are really difficult to answer. Thank you for your time!
First I would like to apologise for a mistake I did:
We are not sure if we can speak about a Slavic ethnic identity which could have been a Byzantine description of various nomadic groups with certain common origin, like “The Celts” or “the Scythians”, the second also used for Slavs by Byzantines. (So can we also speak about certain markers exclusively slavic? I)
Could you please give me the link of the article that speaks about 20% ?
For your assistance, two notes:
Note 1:
If this article is about the R-M458, the samples from Greece (N=263), have R-M458 frequency of 4.2 %. Assuming that the frequency of R-M458 at 36.4% in ancestral Slavs was the same as in modern south Poland, the admixture estimate is 11% for the Athens population, (which mainly originates from parts of the Greek main land where slavic or nomadic presence is recorded). These should probably be interpreted as upper limits (plus statistical margins) because the highest present-day frequency of R-M458 in Poland is probably lower than that in early Slavs, due to admixture, all though the nomadic populations (slavic) that reached Greece at the middle Ages may had some admixture too.
Also descendants of Greeks from Anatolia and Cretans (who mainly dint come to great contact with slavs and so have much lower frequensies – for crete R-M458 frequency is 2,2%) are a great part of the population (>25%) not living mainly in Athens (where the greek sample was received from), but in the Greek part of Macedonia (where Greeks from Anatolia are the vast majority of the population) and Crete. Sample of Macedonian Greeks (which didnt include at the sample Greek refugees from Anatolia, living in Macedonia), was received separately and shows different asmixture, see Note 2.
Note 2: Also, esp. about Greece, in some places in the north, there are spread slavic speaking populations which were assimilated to the major Greek Macedonian population. So if any sample is taken from certain places, in the north (the total population of Macedonian Greeks is very small compared to the general Greek population) there can be great variations, showing relatively bigger highs than at the total Greek Macedonian population.
I write those because in many surveys, the samples are localised, and I think this was also the case here, from what I studied on the article.
Thank you again for your time
Post from iGENEA to 14.01.2010 07:01:00
Dear George_pr,
I am sorry but iGenea does not draw up data for special regions and ethnicities and we also do not any longer darw up statistics with the amount of ancient tribes in modern states.
The last statistics drawn up showed an amount of 20% for Slavs in Greece.
Roman C. Scholz
iGENEA
info@igenea.com
www.igenea.com
Post from George_pr to 13.01.2010 13:01:55
Dear friends of IGENEA
happy new year and good luck to your pioneer effort
1) is there genetical difference between the albanians of the north (gheks) and those of the south (tosks) , regarding
i) the isolation of the populations and the proximity of area of the Gheks to the slavs and (in antiquity) of the illyrians
ii) the proximity of the Tosks to the Greek,the Greek/ Epirotes and the Greek colonies?
2) Are there any data about the proximity
i) Of the Tosks to the Greeks
ii) Of the Greeks to Albanians in general
iii)About the connection of the ancient populations of the modern Greek geographic area with the modern people living at the same area
iv) About the connection of the Greeks from Anatolia with the rest population of modern Greece and the population of the Greekn islands
v) About the connection of the Greeks to the slavs because somewhere you mention:
"as i said, i think all peoples from the Balkans are a mixture of Slavs, Illyrians and other tribes".
Does it include the modern Greeks (many of them are from Anatolia) and at what extend?
Post from Alexandros to 08.12.2009 22:12:36
"In the 18th, 19th and beginning of 20th century the Greek historians used to write that Greeks and Albanians are brothers and the Greek Language and Albanian Language have same Roots from Pellasgians."
-name one greek historian that wrote it
"Also the if you read the Greek Mythology it doesn't make any difference between the illyrians and old greeks."
-1st have you studied greek mythology apart from reading a wikipedia page?
-2nd Illyrios is a mythological person. Illyrioi were not regarded a greek tribe. It is not for sure that albanians have illyrian roots.
"Also i've read that in the 19th century when the greek state was created it was a question whether in greek should speak greek language or albanian language."
-that in not true. name a book/writer that you have read it
"And also it;s a fact the major leaders that created greek state were either albanians or arvanita (albanians who lives in greece for centuries and now consider themself greek but they seak still albanian dialect)..."
-it is true that some (military) leaders of greek revolution were of albanian origin (Arvanites) and did spoke albanian (and greek).
"So should Albanians and Greeks need to re-open old books and consider theirself as they used to consider brothers from heart, blood and origin."
-we need to re-open books (for sure), but there is no common blood/origin. of course no nation is 100% pure!
peace
Post from Anonimis Ciritikasis to 13.08.2009 15:08:45
In the 18th, 19th and beginning of 20th century the Greek historians used to write that Greeks and Albanians are brothers and the Greek Language and Albanian Language have same Roots from Pellasgians.
Also the if you read the Greek Mythology it doesn't make any difference between the illyrians and old greeks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrius
Also i've read that in the 19th century when the greek state was created it was a question whether in greek should speak greek language or albanian language. And also it;s a fact the major leaders that created greek state were either albanians or arvanita (albanians who lives in greece for centuries and now consider themself greek but they seak still albanian dialect)...
So should Albanians and Greeks need to re-open old books and consider theirself as they used to consider brothers from heart, blood and origin.